Merge the Lottery and Raffle

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Karasume
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Merge the Lottery and Raffle

Post by Karasume »

Disclaimer: I understand that there is another thread regarding this matter, but I'd like to go in-depth as to why I believe a change is needed, and a post on a two year old thread isn't enough.

As everyone knows, any pokemon that gets put into the raffle very quickly gets devalued. Before, it was Yveltal and Xerneas, which were admittedly left up there for too long. Now, it's Latios and Latias, and while they're not nearly as devalued as the former, it doesn't take a genius to realize that obtaining these pokemon is simply too easy. I'll explain why the Raffle is in an unhealthy spot right now.

1. Value: Any Pokemon left up as a reward in our current system is doomed to be devalued and hoarded. Legendaries, while not quite so Legendary here, are still supposed to be harder to obtain than normal Pokemon. The current Raffle invalidates that notion tenfold. You only kinda earn it the first time, and then you either don't care anymore or you hoard them.

2. Economy: Because of their stunted value, Legendaries such as Xerneas and Yveltal are like pennies. Latios and Latias are undoubtedly less valuable than most other Legendaries as well. As Legendaries are part of the National Dex, it stands to reason that they'd be more sought-after than Shinies and Special Dex pokemon. This means that Legendaries are the most valuable commodity for completing the National Dex. When you devalue them, you kill off the market. This is doomed to happen if you "remedy" the raffle by rotating in different pokemon. You'll have a market where people can't really use Legendaries to get what they want, because they're mere pennies. You'll be stuck with a market where the only commodities are Shinies and old Special Dex promos. This is a problem, because the National Dex is the most substantial goal. Without Legendaries being of higher value, the main goal becomes infinitely easier to obtain. How will you nurture a breathing economy when you make the main goal so easy to obtain?

3. Maintenance: Having to go back and maintain the raffle is a pain. What would you do? Would rotate normal Pokemon into the raffle? Only people interested in hoarding the reward will play. Would you rotate Legendaries to garner interest? You'll devalue them quickly, which would bring me back to the second point. It's too much to worry about. Too much to think about. There are things more worth time and effort, and an inherently detrimental feature is not one of those things.

4. Longevity: For all the reasons above, the raffle is overall an unhealthy feature for VA, and it in fact hurts it more than it provides an interesting feature to play with. There will be no lasting benefit to keeping it.


Now that I've covered that, I'd like to talk about the Lottery. It is completely uninteresting and unneeded. No one gives a rat's patootie about the Lottery. Money isn't used for anything. All that happens if you win the Lottery is that you're set for life. But.. Set for life in what? You can tackle the raffle endlessly? Who honestly cares, when the Pokemon are doomed to being devalued? You can buy Green scents? Again, who cares? There isn't even a Dex page for Shadow Pokemon. The Lottery is a perfect example of a staple feature of any browser game that got implemented very poorly on VA.


So we have a feature that's unhealthy for VA and a feature that's useless for VA. But we can fix both of these things in one fell swoop!

We can merge the raffle and the lottery.

By doing so, we eliminate the looming threat of devaluation the raffle brings, while also making the Lottery more interesting.

Instead of explaining it, I tossed together a mockup of what can be done with the Lottery.

Image

Obviously, the layout leaves a lot to be desired, but the idea is still there. You currently just get different values of money depending on how many matches you get. The proposed rewards are not only concise and plainly-stated, but they're also enticing (debatable, as one single guaranteed shiny egg may not be a good reward for 5 matches). There isn't really a threat of breaking the longevity of the game with this system. And if it turns out that the top rewards are just too rare, all that would need to be done is increase the chance of matches, as the bottom rewards won't break the game in any way.

I'm open to suggestions regarding this idea. Let me know what you think!

I ask that if you give suggestions or concerns that you clearly state what is fundamentally wrong and why it is so. Please do not be a debbie downer. Constructive feedback is king.

EDIT 1:
- Adding some form of money reward in tandem with more enticing rewards is an idea worth considering. I personally can't give an opinion on it, as I'm quite biased against it.

- It might be worth considering drawing Lottery winners once a week instead of twice a week (for consistency), and perhaps reducing the price.

- The Jackpot reward should be the user's choice of a shiny.

- Egg slot reward should be 1 per valid match. 2 or 3 egg slots, only valid for ONE match.

EDIT 2:
- Consider making the current two lottery dates give different rewards. Timed rewards could still have a 1 week expiration.

- Matches should only be won once a drawing, and subsequent wins give a secondary reward. For example, you can't win multiple Promos from a drawing by getting multiple 4-matches. After the first win, subsequent 4-matches would give a secondary reward, perhaps money.
Last edited by Karasume on December 12th, 2018, 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Merge the Lottery and Raffle

Post by yankeesrule3526 »

I like it
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Re: Merge the Lottery and Raffle

Post by Karasume »

Truthfully, it would be optimal to have some feedback in regards to rewards. I came up with it on the fly and didn't give them much thought beyond "What two rewards might people want most, and what three lesser rewards might be interesting but not detrimental?" I only know what I'd find interesting, but I don't know what others would.
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Re: Merge the Lottery and Raffle

Post by Tango »

I really like this idea too. I don't really agree on the money being useless part since there are still a large portion of us who only have 20,000$ to our name and would like to buy scents and continually breed eggs but only make 4,000$ a week or maybe have a collect that requires stones or hold items which is a constant drain on our funds.

However, it's exactly this reason that I really don't like the current Raffle. Whenever the promo gets changed out there's 0 reason for any newer player to bother participating for a few weeks since in the last 5 minutes of a raffle an oldbie will come by and dump 100+ ticket buys making it impossible for us relatively broke players to have a chance. It's only once the money bags have lost interest does it become conceivable for anyone else to get the raffle promo.

Having a money sink? +1
That money sink being short term and prevent other non-rich players from participating in something? -10

At the moment I only play the lottery, every round I remember to, just to try and get the 4-5 match achievement ^^
The lottery would keep a use for money and reward larger ticket buys for those who can afford it and it doesn't harm the other participants.

Karasume's reward scheme seems pretty good, though I'm not sure on the extra egg slot. The idea itself is cool, but it's unequal with itself if you consider that winning a slot on the Friday lotto is less valuable than if you won on a Monday due to the time between draws. The legendary at 4 matches and shiny at 5 seem okay. Would you get to choose the shiny? Like with the 2 match prize getting to choose 3 base form pokémon?

Speaking of that one, I like it but I wonder if it would go off too much. It's not uncommon to have multiple tickets with 2 matches each. And how much would the monetary gain be for 1 match? The same as it is now ($10)?

+1 the ability to buy multiple random tickets at once.

This would be amazing if implemented :3
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Re: Merge the Lottery and Raffle

Post by Karasume »

Tango wrote: December 12th, 2018, 4:07 am I really like this idea too. I don't really agree on the money being useless part since there are still a large portion of us who only have 20,000$ to our name and would like to buy scents and continually breed eggs but only make 4,000$ a week or maybe have a collect that requires stones or hold items which is a constant drain on our funds.

However, it's exactly this reason that I really don't like the current Raffle. Whenever the promo gets changed out there's 0 reason for any newer player to bother participating for a few weeks since in the last 5 minutes of a raffle an oldbie will come by and dump 100+ ticket buys making it impossible for us relatively broke players to have a chance. It's only once the money bags have lost interest does it become conceivable for anyone else to get the raffle promo.

Having a money sink? +1
That money sink being short term and prevent other non-rich players from participating in something? -10

At the moment I only play the lottery, every round I remember to, just to try and get the 4-5 match achievement ^^
The lottery would keep a use for money and reward larger ticket buys for those who can afford it and it doesn't harm the other participants.

Karasume's reward scheme seems pretty good, though I'm not sure on the extra egg slot. The idea itself is cool, but it's unequal with itself if you consider that winning a slot on the Friday lotto is less valuable than if you won on a Monday due to the time between draws. The legendary at 4 matches and shiny at 5 seem okay. Would you get to choose the shiny? Like with the 2 match prize getting to choose 3 base form pokémon?

Speaking of that one, I like it but I wonder if it would go off too much. It's not uncommon to have multiple tickets with 2 matches each. And how much would the monetary gain be for 1 match? The same as it is now ($10)?

+1 the ability to buy multiple random tickets at once.

This would be amazing if implemented :3
You bring up some great points. It's hard for me to picture money being valuable. Maybe that can be a joint reward for each tier.

I didnt realize the lottery was drawn twice a week. Somehow I had it in my mind it was only done on Fridays. My mistake. It might be a good idea to make the draw happen once a week for consistency, in that case. After all... 7 isn't divisible by anything, so it'd be impossible to set a time and draw the lottery more than once a week. Maybe compensate by halving the $ it takes to buy each ticket?

I truthfully didn't think of whether or not the shiny should be chosen, but I think it should be. 5 matches is probably going to be rare enough that the only time it would potentially be a problem is in the beginning, when the money hoarders are dumping their money. If it's random, it wouldn't be enticing. Adopting random eggs would give the standard user a better chance at a random shiny. It wouldn't be very enticing if it's not a choice.

I also really didn't think of the possibility of someone getting 3 matches potentially 10 times in a single drawing. Maybe reducing it to 1 egg slot is more fair. I doubt 10 egg slots would severely influence much. I imagine the people who would win that many egg slots are the same people who would be able to use them. At any rate, if people dump money into the Lotto in the hopes for incredible numbers of egg slots, then the Lotto is doing its job as a money sink.

On another note, I started 3 out of 4 lines with "I didn't think" or "I didn't realize." D:
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Re: Merge the Lottery and Raffle

Post by Yasha »

+1 for the idea in general :)

Considering the fine-tuning:
+1 for a lottery drawing only once a week

-1 for the suggested prize matching... I suggest this: (explanation why in spoiler)
5-match = 1 in 5 006 386 --> choosable Shiny | Shiny Promo
4-match = 1 in 91 025 --> random Shiny --> (maybe with higher chances for unbreedable Pokis?)
3-match = 1 in 3251 --> Promo
2-match = 1 in 684 --> items (e.g. plates for Arceus) or a higher amount of money
1-match = 1 in 3 --> money (equaling the cost of one ticket)
Spoiler:
We currently have 59 possible Pokemon in a 5-Pokemon-ticket. That means that the chance for the matches are:
(please correct me if I did the math wrong, it's been a while in stochastics)
5-match = 1 in 5 006 386
4-match = 1 in 91 025
3-match = 1 in 3251
2-match = 1 in 684
1-match = 1 in 3

Personally I think that a 4-match for the Promo is simply to hard to obtain. I played the lottery often, trying to get the 5-match-achievement, but never even got a 4-match. A 3-match seems more reasonable for a Promo to me...
You suggested a random Shiny for the 5-match. I like that idea. However, if the Promo is at the 3-match, we have the 4-match gap. What is worth more than a Promo, but less than a Shiny? I have two suggestions here:
1) random Shiny at 4-match and a choosable Shiny at a 5-match
2) random Shiny at 4-match and a Shiny Promo at a 5-match
This leaves the 2-match and 1-match. I personally do not care much about additional egg slots. I also wouldn't kick out money as a prize completely. I suggest keeping the 10$ for a 1-match (or whatever the ticket costs might change to). For the 2-match I suggest item rewards (e.g. plates if the Promo is Arceus), or a higher amount of money. I'm not really sure about the choosable Pokemon part, because that's basically what the Trading Point right now is for...
+1 for the "buy a certain amount of tickets at once". Thankfully, it is possible to buy the exact same ticket twice. Otherwise this would allow anyone with enough money to just buy for example 5006386 tickets and get a guaranteed win.

-1 for reducing the costs for a ticket. In fact, I think the tickets should be a little bit more expensive. Maybe somewhere between 10$-50$... 25$? Otherwise it's not really a money sink at all. But I definitely wouldn't go higher than 50$, otherwise new players would have a hard time participating.
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Re: Merge the Lottery and Raffle

Post by Tango »

Having the lottery drawn once a week, or at least the effects lasting a full week, for the egg slot would certainly fix that inequality. Worth considering, though it may make the lottery more easily forgotten or a bit less interesting since its frequency gets nearly cut in half. Quicker feedback for players is better at keeping retention generally.

There is also definitely the problem of multiple ticket wins of any number of matches in one go. That prize dish out could really pile up. Not just with the egg slot either. Not sure if this would be difficult to implement, but what if it was always limited to 1 of each match prize per draw for someone and then any additional tickets that won something get a monetary compensation?

For example, say I bought 50 tickets for the draw, which is only $500 cost. 8 of them have 2 matches, and 2 with 3 matches as well as some number of 1 matches. With this suggestion I would win +egg slots (for a week?) and get a choice of 3 adopts, plus some amount of money bonus, instead of 24 choices of adopts.


Regarding the value of the egg slot, it would probably vary between person whether it's valuable. I personally like it because I've been breeding eggs for other people for over a year now and as such I haven't been able to adopt much for myself for that whole period as I wait for people to take their eggs. Having more egg slots would really be amazing for me as then I'd be able to keep building up my trade stores, and be able to get Alolas for my dex.

However, if we're limiting the egg slot reward I'd suggest making it maybe a +2 or +3 instead, as a +1 isn't much especially for a 3 Match. Would probably work better as a 2.


If there's any interest in my suggestion above regarding the limit of 1 real prize per draw with money bonus for additional tickets of the same number of matches (since that would also avoid winning multiple promos in one go, especially for Yasha's prize tiering), then I'd support not having the 2 match just be a money prize. It should reward something valuable. Not sure about Plates for Arceus or any pokémon specific thing since not everyone even has an Arceus, and certainly not multiple of them to make use of such things.

There was a suggestion for Cosmetic items a little while ago though that could be neat...


Yasha's listed odds are correct since the lotto is a combinations game. The 5 match is extremely rare currently. I think it's only gone off once in the entire time I've been here. But as Karasume mentioned, maybe the odds could be made better if we're meddling with the prizing anyway. Even just dropping it to 50 options, choose 5, would make the odds for a 5 match drop to 2,118,760; so about half.


Increasing the cost of each ticket would be unnecessary unless the odds were meddled with. As it is, you usually lose more than you win and if we replace some of the money we'd win right now with other prizes that goes down again. The best money sinks are cheap. Though, if the odds were reduced it would need to be re-balanced.
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Re: Merge the Lottery and Raffle

Post by Yasha »

How about having the lottery twice a week, but offering different prizes for the lower matches on those days? That way we could keep the egg-slot prize for 7 days without problems, and we could also offer a wider variety of prizes. One day could for example offer higher money prizes and evolutionary items, making it more attractive for newbies.

Concerning double matches, I'm definitely against getting the top prize more than once in one drawing (e.g. not two Promos in one go). I like money compensation or free tickets as a secondary prize.
As much as I like the Gacha machine idea, I would prefer it if it would stay it's one thing. For one, it's a huge chunk of programming to do and I think it would diminish or at least severely delay the lottery-raffle-merge. Second, since we are aiming for a wide variety of cosmetic items in the Gacha machine, it would take ages to collect them (especially if they are only assigned to specific matches). Yes, we want a money pool and long-term goals, but at least for me the Gacha was supposed to be a cute little thing on the side. Plus, as a newbie I wouldn't be too interested in cosmetic items at first, not if there are Dexes to fill.
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Re: Merge the Lottery and Raffle

Post by Karasume »

I'm adding spoilers as I quote you, as your guys' posts are quite large (which is good!) and I don't want to make a behemoth post.
Yasha wrote: December 12th, 2018, 1:43 pm
Spoiler:
+1 for the idea in general :)

Considering the fine-tuning:
+1 for a lottery drawing only once a week

-1 for the suggested prize matching... I suggest this: (explanation why in spoiler)
5-match = 1 in 5 006 386 --> choosable Shiny | Shiny Promo
4-match = 1 in 91 025 --> random Shiny --> (maybe with higher chances for unbreedable Pokis?)
3-match = 1 in 3251 --> Promo
2-match = 1 in 684 --> items (e.g. plates for Arceus) or a higher amount of money
1-match = 1 in 3 --> money (equaling the cost of one ticket)
Spoiler:
We currently have 59 possible Pokemon in a 5-Pokemon-ticket. That means that the chance for the matches are:
(please correct me if I did the math wrong, it's been a while in stochastics)
5-match = 1 in 5 006 386
4-match = 1 in 91 025
3-match = 1 in 3251
2-match = 1 in 684
1-match = 1 in 3

Personally I think that a 4-match for the Promo is simply to hard to obtain. I played the lottery often, trying to get the 5-match-achievement, but never even got a 4-match. A 3-match seems more reasonable for a Promo to me...
You suggested a random Shiny for the 5-match. I like that idea. However, if the Promo is at the 3-match, we have the 4-match gap. What is worth more than a Promo, but less than a Shiny? I have two suggestions here:
1) random Shiny at 4-match and a choosable Shiny at a 5-match
2) random Shiny at 4-match and a Shiny Promo at a 5-match
This leaves the 2-match and 1-match. I personally do not care much about additional egg slots. I also wouldn't kick out money as a prize completely. I suggest keeping the 10$ for a 1-match (or whatever the ticket costs might change to). For the 2-match I suggest item rewards (e.g. plates if the Promo is Arceus), or a higher amount of money. I'm not really sure about the choosable Pokemon part, because that's basically what the Trading Point right now is for...
+1 for the "buy a certain amount of tickets at once". Thankfully, it is possible to buy the exact same ticket twice. Otherwise this would allow anyone with enough money to just buy for example 5006386 tickets and get a guaranteed win.

-1 for reducing the costs for a ticket. In fact, I think the tickets should be a little bit more expensive. Maybe somewhere between 10$-50$... 25$? Otherwise it's not really a money sink at all. But I definitely wouldn't go higher than 50$, otherwise new players would have a hard time participating.
I'ma have to say no to the random shiny as a 4th prize. It's understandable having the bottom two rewards be consolation prizes, so items/money might be worth considering. However, having a random shiny be the 4-match prize isn't worthwhile at all. You would have much better odds adopting random eggs. It may be enticing for people who aren't so gung-ho about hatching their eggs as they get them, but for those who are, it's not worth going for. I feel like the people who would play the Lottery most are people who click a lot, have a lot of money, and thus would have plenty of CE credits to hatch eggs frequently. Could it be suitable as a consolation reward for people trying to get the 5-match? Maybe. But as a top-tier reward, that's not what it should be. I feel as though the top two rewards should be something you'd really want to go for. Maybe the third one, too.

As for reducing the money cost, that was only an idea to compensate for making the Lottery be drawn only once a week. If it's wholly a bad idea, then I'll accept that.
Tango wrote: December 12th, 2018, 2:10 pm
Spoiler:
Having the lottery drawn once a week, or at least the effects lasting a full week, for the egg slot would certainly fix that inequality. Worth considering, though it may make the lottery more easily forgotten or a bit less interesting since its frequency gets nearly cut in half. Quicker feedback for players is better at keeping retention generally.

There is also definitely the problem of multiple ticket wins of any number of matches in one go. That prize dish out could really pile up. Not just with the egg slot either. Not sure if this would be difficult to implement, but what if it was always limited to 1 of each match prize per draw for someone and then any additional tickets that won something get a monetary compensation?

For example, say I bought 50 tickets for the draw, which is only $500 cost. 8 of them have 2 matches, and 2 with 3 matches as well as some number of 1 matches. With this suggestion I would win +egg slots (for a week?) and get a choice of 3 adopts, plus some amount of money bonus, instead of 24 choices of adopts.


Regarding the value of the egg slot, it would probably vary between person whether it's valuable. I personally like it because I've been breeding eggs for other people for over a year now and as such I haven't been able to adopt much for myself for that whole period as I wait for people to take their eggs. Having more egg slots would really be amazing for me as then I'd be able to keep building up my trade stores, and be able to get Alolas for my dex.

However, if we're limiting the egg slot reward I'd suggest making it maybe a +2 or +3 instead, as a +1 isn't much especially for a 3 Match. Would probably work better as a 2.


If there's any interest in my suggestion above regarding the limit of 1 real prize per draw with money bonus for additional tickets of the same number of matches (since that would also avoid winning multiple promos in one go, especially for Yasha's prize tiering), then I'd support not having the 2 match just be a money prize. It should reward something valuable. Not sure about Plates for Arceus or any pokémon specific thing since not everyone even has an Arceus, and certainly not multiple of them to make use of such things.

There was a suggestion for Cosmetic items a little while ago though that could be neat...


Yasha's listed odds are correct since the lotto is a combinations game. The 5 match is extremely rare currently. I think it's only gone off once in the entire time I've been here. But as Karasume mentioned, maybe the odds could be made better if we're meddling with the prizing anyway. Even just dropping it to 50 options, choose 5, would make the odds for a 5 match drop to 2,118,760; so about half.


Increasing the cost of each ticket would be unnecessary unless the odds were meddled with. As it is, you usually lose more than you win and if we replace some of the money we'd win right now with other prizes that goes down again. The best money sinks are cheap. Though, if the odds were reduced it would need to be re-balanced.
To your first paragraph, I like Yasha's later idea.:
Yasha wrote: December 12th, 2018, 2:49 pm How about having the lottery twice a week, but offering different prizes for the lower matches on those days? That way we could keep the egg-slot prize for 7 days without problems, and we could also offer a wider variety of prizes. One day could for example offer higher money prizes and evolutionary items, making it more attractive for newbies.
I think the idea of turning multiple "wins" into a monetary or secondary reward is a good idea. While I still don't believe that multiple instances of a win is an issue (especially considering the odds of higher tier rewards), it's still an idea that will absolutely guarantee no rewards could possibly break the game, and it also does allow for more potential rewards to be added (rewards which would break the system of won too many times at once). It's a solid idea.

The egg slot reward I feel is a great reward. Other players might not feel that way. Maybe having the Lottery draw multiple times a week with different rewards each time - as Yasha suggested - would be a good and flexible idea. The only problem lies in finding enticing rewards so people actually want to play it.

Egg limit should be 2-3 if we're only allowing one "win" every draw.

The first and second rewards are fairly common in comparison to later rewards. Having them reward simple items would be a consolation prize. The bottom tier rewards don't necessarily have to be that enticing. I'm not sure Cosmetics would be a good idea. Looking on the thread, there are a lot of Cosmetic items to consider. That's infinitely more suitable for a Gacha machine. Arceus plates are a bad idea for the same reasons Tango stated. All we really have left to work with are evolution items and scents.

So, am I to assume we leave the ticket price as is?

Yasha wrote: December 12th, 2018, 2:49 pm
Spoiler:
Concerning double matches, I'm definitely against getting the top prize more than once in one drawing (e.g. not two Promos in one go). I like money compensation or free tickets as a secondary prize.
As much as I like the Gacha machine idea, I would prefer it if it would stay it's one thing. For one, it's a huge chunk of programming to do and I think it would diminish or at least severely delay the lottery-raffle-merge. Second, since we are aiming for a wide variety of cosmetic items in the Gacha machine, it would take ages to collect them (especially if they are only assigned to specific matches). Yes, we want a money pool and long-term goals, but at least for me the Gacha was supposed to be a cute little thing on the side. Plus, as a newbie I wouldn't be too interested in cosmetic items at first, not if there are Dexes to fill.
Whoever gets the top prize twice in one drawing needs to go draw the lottery irl and seek opportunities, because that luck is incredible. But I do like the idea of secondary prizes.

Well, realistically speaking, a Gacha wouldn't take much to program, I'd think. It's essentially a lottery, only without the whole Matching concept. It's just straight up "1% this, 5% that, 20% this common garbo. Now press the button!" But, this isn't really the place discussing whether or not it's a good idea.

Agreed on the second bit.
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